Back to Work on Turn-Arounds–And Possibly Ping-Pong
Leo is home! Finally! He looked like he’d been in cowboy bootcamp all summer. He just looked really wore out and soooo happy to be home. He hadn’t seen green grass all summer and his little nose was sun burned. The best part was seeing him and his pasture mate Shadow say their hellos. Cuuuute!
I let him have a few days off to relax, and then I hopped back on. I got so frustrated today over turn-arounds. I’m just not getting it at all.
The exercise: When I’m practicing a turn-around, I’m walking a bigger circle, then I cut to the middle of the circle, turn around, and walk or trot out. I repeat that over and over until I hate myself for being so lame at it (and sometimes I stay up til 2 in the morning to blog about how lame I am at it).
How I ask: I bump with my legs to the center of the circle, then I take out the inside leg so he’ll turn.
The problem(s): I think I’m messing up with my hands and my body position.
Questions: Do you guys lean to the inside with your weight? Do you lean back? Do you look into the turn (twist your body in the direction of the turn, almost like you’re looking over your shoulder?) What about your hand position?
I’ve seen that hand position should be the inside rein higher than the outside rein, with hands pretty close together. But it seems to work better for me if I almost guide him with the inside rein, almost pulling him around.
The results I’m getting–how I know I’m messing up: Either I bunch him up so much that he starts that dreadful hopping around with his front end; or I give him too much slack and he walks out of it.
Sometime I feel like I was born to train horses. Other days I feel like I should quit and take up Ping-Pong. Today I felt like I needed to take up Ping-Pong. Ugh!
I’m so glad Leo is back though. I missed him bunches.
I want to add this from one of Al’s earlier comments to my rantings about turn-arounds. I never even thought about order before!
“Another “trick” I learned from Larry Rose video….the order in which you train is important. Work on spins first when the horse is fresh and wants to go somewhere. Stops next when he’s tired enough that he wants to stop but still fresh enough he can stop hard. Circles last, when he’s good and tired where he’ll listen and relax. ~Al”
15 Aug 2008 at 2:38 am
I’ve been trying to refine Brandy’s spins here lately. Especially to the left where she also tends to lose her
forward motion and starts hopping. That’s what the hopping is all about, they get tangled up in front.
I worked on it a little with Heidi Green when I was at the clinic. Also done a bunch of reading and watching the
videos over and over.
Some of the things I try to think of while working.
Look where you’re going. Sit up straight and turn your head in the direction of the spin. It automatically puts
your body in position. Larry Rose really exaggerates the move and uses it as a precue to let the horse know to
spin. No leaning…ride your seat not your feet.
I use the neck rein. Keep hands low on the neck to cue to move the shoulders. Later you’ll neck rein high on the neck to bend the body for the circles.You want to really have him move his shoulders when he feels the rein. Reinforce it with your outside leg until he gets it. It has to become a light cue because you don’t want to pull his nose to the outside.
Use the fence at first to help you. At first you can use it at about a 45 degree angle to get him working on his hocks. Then later you can use it by making a 180 turn before he “runs into” the fence. That keeps them from leaking out of spins. I use the fence a little at first to get the ideas across but have to be careful it doesn’t become a crutch.
Work the Les Vogt exercise #2 a lot. This is a great exercise!!! Do it until it is perfect. Do it until you can just move those shoulders whenever and however you want. Diagonols, counter arcs, etc. Work it until it is whisper light. Make sure the neck is baby bottom soft.
Once you’ve got #2 working, time to spin. Go into exercise #2 in a tight counter arc. Then just switch your hand and leg cues to the opposite direction and go to the spin. Everything is already in position and it’s an “unload” for the horse. They actually like moving out of the counter arc into the spin. Few steps at first then add a little bit each time. Before you know it’ll be four and a whoa. This exercise has really helped Brandy’s left spins.
Ride the squares. When you get some control of the shoulders and have him thinking about turning on the hocks riding the square is a good way to teach them to keep forward motion in the spins. Pretty simple, just make the turns a sharp 90 degrees then go to the next corner. The trick is to make sure you drive them out after the turn. You’ll use the outside leg quite a bit at first and a little spur if he seems doggy coming out or wants to round off thee corners.
Watch the nose. You want the nose tipped into the turn but not so much that they get bent in the middle too much. Have to play around and find what’s comfortable for each horse. I think the horses that can spin with a little more bend are better looking and spin faster but they all have a comfort zone.
Until things get pretty good, work on the spins from a forward maneuver…walk, trot or lope into them. Starting the spin from a stop will come when they get the idea that they have to keep forward motion without actually going forward.
To boot or not to boot. On my young horses when things are still real slow and easy I don’t boot their legs. I feel if they bump themselves a little they’ll figure out it’s a good idea to pay attention to their footwork. But as you start to ask for more it’s best to put them in boots. I use either cheap splint boots, polo wraps or Classic Equine support boots, depending on what we’re planning to do that day. I sometimes use bell boots depending on the horse. It’s a good idea to boot them up with a nice clean set then check the boots real good after the ride to see if they’ve got any signs of hitting. My experience is that “no turn” bell boots are like honest politicians…sounds good in the ads but never quite works out like they say.
Once you get the spins really refined have to remember to stop before you get dizzy and fall off.
15 Aug 2008 at 5:53 am
OMG, I don’t even want to respond because I HATE spins. I don’t know if its because I’m not good at asking for them, or if Mea just sucks at them, probably a little of both. When we go to the left she pivots on the wrong foot, when we go to the right, she pivots with her stomach & both ends go round! So I could tell you how I ask for them, but you’d probably be better going with Al’s response! But for me, Doug really pushes trotting circles in & out of them & really pushing her hip to the inside when trotting out, because Mea has ALOT of suck back to her (great for stops & rollbacks, not so great for spins), so sometimes she steps behind. I really need to discuss them with him because I feel like she’s not made much progress with them. Another thing Doug told me is when doing spins never let your hand holding the reins go past the saddle horn, if you feel it needs to, use your outside leg.
15 Aug 2008 at 9:05 am
Here’s a little something I tried today. Never done it before and never really heard anybody talk about so it is definitely in the experimental stage.
When cueing for the spin I laid the rein over her neck. So the initial cue isn’t only the rein on the side of the neck it’s on the top of the neck close to the saddle.
What I’m looking for is her to tip her nose inside just a little bit when she feels the rein on top of her neck. The feeling on the side tells her what direction to tip it.
I think it is more for me then the horse. It sort of forces me to make sure that outside rein is slack and not tipping her nose the wrong way to start. I know not to do it but it happens if my brain becomes disconnected from my hands. Keeps your hands low too and I think that looks good.
We’ll see how it goes the next few days.
Amanda, work that exercise #2 trick and riding the squares. It seems to really make them want to get that correct foot for the pivot. Counter-arcs forces then to cross over in front correctly because your always moving forward. And concentrate on really driving her out of her turns. It is more unbalanced and uncomfortable for them to come out of a turn hard on the outside foot so they’ll usually make the decision to pick up the correct pivot foot.
15 Aug 2008 at 2:38 pm
MJ’s back! oh good. I posted some baby turnaround exercises on my blog to help you. Al Dunning walked a circle at our clinic- I can do that. LOL. That wshisturnaround exercise- what teh heck! I want the end result of trainingfromthe beginning; by golly. LOL.
Al had great advice.
I think I’m messing up with my hands and my body position.
Questions: “Do you guys lean to the inside with your weight? Do you lean back?” No. Put weight on outside hip or sit straight. ( you can sit straight and/on the outside hip too- with your mind. And yes it makes a difference. )
“What about your hand position?” - I have to go ride and think on that one.
“guide him with the inside rein, almost pulling him around.”
I dont pull my horse around- I’d fix that problem before i worked on turnaround.
I hope that helped -
net teachin is HARD. LOL.
15 Aug 2008 at 2:41 pm
oh my gosh and i cant edit?
I’m dislexic, what the heck? LOL.
I spend more time on edit then on writing.
Al Dunning walked a circle.
That was his turnaround exercise.
15 Aug 2008 at 2:45 pm
Our Al here had GREAT advice.
ok I think i clarified my first post- dugh.
15 Aug 2008 at 2:47 pm
“What about your hand position?”
None of us, at any of my reining clinics at any level, rode with one hand on the reins.
I can see him now- our top student at Pat Wyse-
walking a turnaround, step - release- step - release- one step at a time, direct rein and indirect rein (neck rein)
working together- asking for one step- release-
then one step- release- repeat-
Then he put it all together fast the last day.
wow. OMG. What a ride!
Then he had one hand on the rein.
15 Aug 2008 at 2:56 pm
Are you working on the back a circle exercise?
That helps me free the shoulder, for the turn.
If you are pulling your horse in the turnaround the shoulder may be locked shut.
We need some exercises that will give us a key to open the locked shoulder door -
maybe?
15 Aug 2008 at 3:51 pm
Hi! It’s super early in the morning. I’m about the head out to day two of my second Les Vogt clinic! I worked a lot of turn-arounds yesterday and had some personal break throughs. Also. I’m in love. For the clinic I’m riding a 5 year old bay gelding. I am IN LOVE. He’s sooooo sweet. I’ll get pictures today.
I can’t afford a horse…. Lets see, I wonder if she would trade for something… hmmmmm
17 Aug 2008 at 8:11 am
I been around horses a long time. Never have met anyone that can afford one. Sure have met a lot of people that can’t afford to be without one though.
There’s been more than enough times I’ve wondered how I was gonna get gas to get back and forth to work. But the horses never have to worry about their feed bowl being empty. Money comes and goes, good horses are hard to find.
Larry Rose says…If you find a good horse, buy it.
But I also know that if you lived around our place you’d never have to worry about being on foot. You’re willing to learn everything you can and put in the time to apply what you learn. I think maybe you might work a deal with somebody. You work one or two of their horses and they give you one of their colts or something.
19 Aug 2008 at 6:16 am
mtnmollie,
Be careful with the backing a circle exercise. It is an excellent exercise but it is a very advanced maneuver. The horse has to cross his front legs under when stepping around while backing. They have to understand the difference between stepping over and under very well.
The Les Vogt #2 shoulder exercise is very good at getting the front legs reaching out and stepping across. Start with just moving the shoulder on an almost straight line. At first it is mostly moving their nose in either direction while moving ahead. Then you move diagonal in the opposite direction their nose is tipped. Then you can get to where they can turn a pretty tight circle with their nose pointed one direction and their shoulders going the other. But you always want to make sure they keep forward motion or their front legs won’t step out far enough to cross over good.
I use this a lot with Brandy since she gets a little tangled up in front sometimes to the left when spinning. Just a reminder for her that the spin is forward motion without going forward….kinda sorta. Also have to find that fine line where they are reaching enough to get a good cross over but back enough that they don’t leak out of the spin.
19 Aug 2008 at 6:30 am